making up applications

[lmgrahamdc]

Just wanted some feedback on people who "make up" applications to old kata when the applications have been "lost".  How do you feel about that?  and can it be done?  or does the knowledge always have to pass from teacher to student?   Leslie

[Jogun]

Well, if the application someone makes up works then, sure, it can be done.  However, there is no guarantee it is what the creator of the form originally intended and more advanced techniques that may not be very apparent will probably not be discerned.  Obviously the teacher to student way is the best method.

[Jogun]

BTW, here is a link to an article that relates quite a bit to this topic.

http://www.fightingarts.com/reading/article.php?id=366

[JAponte]

 :oI would like to believe it is possible to recover "lost" applications to forms or katas. It would take some extraordinary individual. I mean to say, there had to be at some point, where someone started from nothing discovering applications or creating Katas.

I think definitely would be a lot simpler if there is a teacher student realationship.  

Jenn

[viciouspickles]

I agree with Jogun.

I would imagine that as one practices and progresses in an art, he or she could begin to understand what the creator of the kata was trying to teach.  I would also guess that to fully grasp a particular move/application one would have to at least be at the level of the creator of the kata.

On the other hand, without a teacher to lead the way how can you know if there's anything more to learn?

--Glenn

[jvaran]

I agree to a point. For some kata, you can come up with applications that can help you improve. These may be good (as in functional) applications, but they won't necessarily be what the creator intended. And although you can improve your skills somewhat through this method, you won't be exploring the full potential of that particular kata. On the other hand, some moves (or entire kata) can seem completely baffling until a qualified teacher shows you the correct applications. This, I believe, is the only way to get the application intended by the creator of the form.

[musashis5rings]

who cares,......while you have your nose in history books trying to figure out the true application,,,,,,someone who doesn't read has figure out what works best for him or her and is slappin you around like a red -headed step child.

it simply doesn't matter,....
what works for someone doesn't have to work for all.
If a true practitioner cant look at a technique and see how it works
in a few minutes, then go back to the basics and find it there.

[Jogun]

At the same time, someone who doesn't attempt to look beyond first impressions and understand something on a deeper level will get 'slapped' around by someone who has done both.  

[Pete Pittman]

Perhaps it does matter to know the original applications of a form.  The form could have been intended to improve the capacity of the practitioner in some way that minus proper intention would render the form ineffectual and possibly even counterproductive.  At some level of development, the large scale physical movements of any form will be easily understood.  At another point, the minute details of the form...say strikes hidden within a throw...without proper instruction, as mentioned above, will be nearly impossible to recover.  I'd much rather have a guide who knows the way.  Form is lifeless w/o intention.